Shit-stirring Saturday

"BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather" (bugeyedacura) 07/09/2016 at 09:32 • Filed to: None

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I think Ford is a completely overrated brand.

Their cars aren’t as good as their direct competitors (they just have great marketing) and they ride the wave of good will from not taking bailout money, even though they did, just years before other American car companies.

Flavien Vidal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 09:47

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After seeing the Ford RS aroudn the Top Gear track, I was kind of surprised at how it behaved... Wobbling trying to find grip, understeering like crazy... I never expected that from the car. I thought it would be naturally a lot more oversteery, rotating nicely on corner entry...etc, but it seems to be nothing like that and borderline worse than an Audi. Kind of desappointing. This would never sell without the “drift mode”, that does not even look fun to me.

On the other end, I’m all over the GT350! That thing looks sick!

MultiplaOrgasms > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 09:49

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Someone put it this way: Ford’s performance cars are never the best, but always fun and good value.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 09:51

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I think most of the good will, at least in my mind, comes from the fact that they are actively trying to appeal to the enthusiast market with inexpensive fun quick cars. $20-25k budget? Fiesta ST. $25-30k budget? Focus ST if you need practicality, turbo Mustang if not. $30-40k budget? V8 Mustang or a AWD turbo lunacy that is the RS. And if you’re hilariously wealthy you can get the new GT. They appeal to a wide demographic of affordable fun cars. Not a lot of other companies have a lineup like that.

EL_ULY > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 09:55

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So true. Dumb Ford. You’re so dumb, ya big dummies. They should just stop trying.

Flavien Vidal > MultiplaOrgasms 07/09/2016 at 09:56

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That’s the thing. Trying to get laptimes with the Focus RS does not look fun AT ALL, and “drifting” it might be fun for a while but it also look so damn easy that it could very well end up being boring as hell after a while (and a short while)...

MultiplaOrgasms > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 10:16

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Leave it up to Ford to make drifting an unrewarding experience.

Then again while the RS may not be particularly great around a track it makes up for that with being great in situations where one doesn’t drive at 10/10, i.e spirited driving on public roads. Of course so does a Peugeot 106 GTi for a tenth of the price but Ford marketing has payed me good money not to mention that.

Echo51 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:21

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I can only agree. the gap from FoST/FiST to RS or mustang is retardedly big, unlike audi or similar that have seemingly better progression up to the top of the line models.

DynamicWeight > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:22

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Memes aside, Mustangs are really nice. Especially compared to their competitors. The interior in a mustang is a nicer place to be than a 350Z, Camero, or Charger. I’d also argue more livability as a DD over a S2000 or Miata. Sure you could spend more money and do better, but you don’t have to.

I can’t speak to the ST twins but people also seem to love them. Ford’s strong point is the Mustang and F-150, both of which are very good vehicles.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 10:22

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The car and AWD system are still transverse-engine, front-wheel based. They say it can send much more power to the rear than that setup usually allows, but I’m not so sure.

FWIW, the non-VW chassis Audis are longitudinal engine and equal split based with RWD bias, So they actually perform better than most of these other systems.

And as for the GT350, it may be fun to drive, but it’s performance numbers are sub-par for the price. I like the Miata philosiphy, but it becomes a lot let appetizing at $55k+...

Flavien Vidal > MultiplaOrgasms 07/09/2016 at 10:26

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lol. Appart from the Focus RS, I would happily own any other car of the RS line up... It’s just that the Focus looks... should I say it? Boring.

Frenchlicker > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:26

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If you look at the performance models you are probably correct. If. You mean as. A whole I will politely disagree.

Flavien Vidal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:28

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Yeah, but the GT350 gets everything... It looks cool, it’s very much fast enough for me, it seems to be TONS of fun to drive, it sounds awesome and it’s still fairly cheap for such a car. So sign me up for it anytime :)

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 07/09/2016 at 10:30

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Like I said above, marketing. A lot of companies do that. But they don’t slap bright badges on the cars and put Ken Block in them doing donuts. Consider VW. The Jetta Sport and Golf TSI are 20-25k cars, and pace the Fiesta ST in all manner of driving, but nobody knows that because they don’t market them that way.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:32

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Counterpoint: You're wrong and should feel wrong. No go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > EL_ULY 07/09/2016 at 10:32

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Lets put a production GT versus a production Z06. I’ll tell you what, I won’t even put the $200k extra into the Z06 that the GT would cost over it.

MultiplaOrgasms > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 10:33

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Looks are subjective. Personally I’ve never been a big fan of Ford design, particularly the One-Ford watered down generic world car rubbish of late.

EL_ULY > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:35

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i’d get the Z06 :] But the Ford GT is more awesome!

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Echo51 07/09/2016 at 10:35

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I think the problem is there’s no too brand to hand customers off to. The thing about Audi is they are fed A lot of customers directly from VWs. It gives a more sensible separation and pushes their prices down a bit to give Audi more room. If Ford could ever get it’s shit together with Lincoln, it’s possible they could do the same thing.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > DynamicWeight 07/09/2016 at 10:37

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I’d have to disagree. I believe the interior of the new Camaro is much nicer than the Mustang. But I’m not a fan of Ford interiors across the line. A lot of people try to tell me how nice the dash in the Fusion is, and I think it looks hideous.

Cash Rewards > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:37

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I’m unsure of that claim. If I’m getting a fiesta st, it’s because I’m autocrossing it (or track days). O don’t think any vw except GTI or R are handling that well.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Frenchlicker 07/09/2016 at 10:39

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You’ve politely disagreed with me. So lets conversate here. What do you see that’s so highly competitive in the standard models? I have not been impressed in what I’ve seen or driven, but I’m the first to admit I haven’t driven everything. Also, trucks don’t count. Their trucks are ballin.

Flavien Vidal > MultiplaOrgasms 07/09/2016 at 10:42

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Sorry by “looks boring” I meant the way it drives looks boring.. Not the styling.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 10:42

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I just don’t believe you’re getting the performance for dollars. A high revving engines IS tons of fun, but in a car playing in the $50k+ segment, there has to be performance to match the fun quotient.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/09/2016 at 10:43

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I’m not wrong. You’re wrong. And I’ll fight you to the death to prove it.

Under_Score > MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig 07/09/2016 at 10:43

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Lol, the Focus ST isn’t practical. Focus hatchbacks have no room inside.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > EL_ULY 07/09/2016 at 10:44

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Lies. Don’t be fooled by giant exhausts and an engine in the ass. The Corvette is the coolest car ever.

MultiplaOrgasms > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:44

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Luckily there is still one affordable, RWD biased high-performance hatchback on the market, and if you don’t want AWD you can have that as well.

MultiplaOrgasms > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:45

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It has 500hp for allahs sake.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Cash Rewards 07/09/2016 at 10:46

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I would say the Jetta Sport would lose that fight, but a Golf Launch Edition would be hard to beat, and would be cheaper. I believe that For the price of the ST, you could get the Golf, put über sticky tires on it, and probably have a faster car around the course.

Echo51 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:47

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We don’t even have lincoln over in europe, so they have no feeder brand...

yamahog > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:50

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To Ford’s credit, they’ve cracked the youth enthusiast market and have the uplevel sporty cars to foster brand loyalty, unlike VW (you’d have to jump to Audi) and Subaru. The frustrating thing about Chevy and Dodge is they really don’t have an entry-level FiST/FoST competitor. GM somehow thinks that the youths will buy a Sonic RS and pretend it’s the same, or buy a Camaro and gain weight while sacrificing practicality (I’ll admit if I could only have one car living in Michigan, it’d be tough to pick the 1LE). FCA has the 500 Abarth and the Fiata now, but they’re also short on practicality and the Dart is a serious disappointment.

Nick Has an Exocet > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:51

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The Evolution has the same layout but has much better manners.

Flavien Vidal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 10:58

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What other brand new car pulls 500 hp, ahd is no slouch around the track for 55k$?The GT350 is only 1.5s slower around Button Willow than C7 Corvette with a Z51 package... Not exactly “slow” lol

EL_ULY > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 11:06

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I’m the biggest Vette fan ever. Especially C7.R! But that Ford GT is insanely rad sauce in every way imo.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > MultiplaOrgasms 07/09/2016 at 11:22

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We don’t get that here :(

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > yamahog 07/09/2016 at 11:24

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My biggest gripe with GM is the lack of Cruze and Sonic SSs. Both cars have very capable platforms that could handle more power.

Needmoargarage > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 11:28

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We can’t even get a production Z06 driven by a professional to finish an out lap without overheating /:

random001 > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 12:01

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try $300k to $700k depending on when you try to buy one. Z06 is $100k, nicely equipped, GT is $400k, isn’t it?

Tom McParland > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 12:12

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Counterpoint...Ford is the only American brand that is actually competitive against non-American brands.

From a performance perspective they have the most diverse portfolio in the industry for speed-freaks who aren’t rich. Everything from a 20k hot hatch, to a 35k turbo sport sedan, muscle cars, serious off road trucks and a super car. No other brand has an offering in every performance segment like that. And no VAG doesn’t count if you spread it out across the brands...I’m talking under one nameplate.

There are plenty of Jalops (including me) that cross-shopped the Focus ST with the GTI and the WRX. I was impressed with the performance/dollar value of the ST (especially once incentives are factored), but preferred to spend a little more on the GTI.

The Fusion is the only mid-size domestic that actually holds its own against the imports. Are there better offerings depending on your priorities? Sure, but my customers have put the Fusion on their shopping list with the Accord and Sonata. No one that I’ve worked with that was considering an import has considered the Malibu or 200.

The the Explorer is a solid pick if you want a minivan avoidance machine, you can even get it in a crazy turbo model. Again, folks will actually look at this as an alternative to the Highlander, Pilot etc..

The F150 is a good truck...I’m not going to waste time defending it. You may prefer different trucks. Personally I like the style of the GM trucks better, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the F150 is a good buy.

As for the point about riding on good will from not-taking bailout money, there doesn’t really seem to be any evidence that that is what is driving their sales. On the contrary, you could argue that they didn’t need bailout money because they adapted to the marketplace and didn’t churn out uncompetitive garbage like the other two who for too many years banked on consumers who would just “buy American” blindly.

I could go on and on...I’m not a Ford fanboi, but I respect the brand and will say that from a corporate perspective they are the only domestic automaker that has their shit together.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 12:21

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But can you find one for $55k? So far everyone I’ve seen has had a ludicrous markup.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Tom McParland 07/09/2016 at 12:28

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Well said.

The ONLY reason I bought my GTI over the FiST is that I disliked the FiST interior layout.

And I want to be clear here, I am not discussing quality of the materials or components, only how things were placed. I much prefer where everything is on my GTI.

If Ford had offered a real LSD in the FiST I would have ignored the interior. As it is my Performance Package GTI is a better starting point than the FiST, but stock va stock even with the PP extras the FiST is more fun to drive than my GTI.

Tom McParland > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 07/09/2016 at 12:36

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Same boat here...FiST was just too small so I thought about the FoST instead. Loved the speed, but I my main reasoning for taking the VW is I wanted a more upscale interior and wanted a car that wasn’t so obviously a hot hatch.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Tom McParland 07/09/2016 at 12:38

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A couple things: first off, their cars getting cross shipped vs the other brands not is exactly what I’m talking about. They’re not really superior, just better marketed. The Fusion is crap compared to the other cars it gets compared to. Its no Accord or even a 6.

I love the Taurus, but for the money, the SS is a no brainer. And the hot hatches are the weakest in their segment, and people forget How expensive they can be. A FoST is only $1k less than a GTI, and is nowhere near as nice or capable.

And saying “oh you can’t use other companies multiple brands to compare” is also not fair. Its not VAGs fault that they’ve decided to life-support Lincoln and mercy-killed Mercury after they ran it into the ground.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 12:41

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Also, you’re making the mistake of quoting base model pricing, and GT350R performance numbers. Remember, that car is almost like $10k more isn’t it?

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Needmoargarage 07/09/2016 at 12:43

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I think in the beginning that was true. They’d fixed the car though.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > random001 07/09/2016 at 12:43

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Something like that. I haven’t followed the car because in all honesty it doesn’t hold any interest for me.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > EL_ULY 07/09/2016 at 12:45

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Meh lol

Frenchlicker > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 12:50

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To be honest I’m basing it on the focus and first here, I despise CUV’s so I haven’t tested any. While test driving their cars and those of their closest competitors (GM, Chrysler, and Toyota) I thought the interior had a better feel than GM and it was better equipped, for the price point, than the Toyota. Chrysler was okay, neither here nor there. The Toyota drove like a Toyota so nothing to report, the GM felt like it had turbo lag on a non turbo version not to mention that it didn’t feel like it want to stop when I got to a stop light, the Chrysler was again very boring and slow. The Ford just felt like it was ready to have fun if you wanted to one moment and it would be a boring city car the next if need be. It also effortlessly got up to a speed that I prefer not to say on the interstate.

Sweet Trav > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 13:00

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Time for my Hot Take:

An SS in the real world is almost 13k more than a SHO. I got my Taurus SHO with discounts for less than 36k. Dealers can’t even stock SS’s let alone them go for sticker. And Here’s the other shocker, the best car based on performance in that class isn’t the SS or the SHO, it’s the SRT392 Charger. (Despite typical Chrysler quality). And I would argue that the SHO is the best all around car though for normal people.

VW (the brand not VAG) makes exactly 1 performance car for North America and their reliability STILL blows. They are an unethical shitstain of a corporation. They are woefully mismanaged and arrogant, they are to Germany what GM is to the USA.

Final remarks: Compared to the Fusion, the new Passat is a hot steaming pile of beige Teutonic trash. I would argue that the Accord is better than the Fusion but the Fusion is better than the 6, (Having actually driven all 4)

Cash Rewards > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 13:31

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I’ll agree that dollar for dollar Ford can be lacking, especially at entry level. I just got a civic lx yesterday, and compared to that or the Mazda 3 the comparable focus was junk. Didn’t even have rear discs.

Sweet Trav > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 13:57

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The biggest gripe is the cascada gets the high output 200hp 4, on the same platform while the lowly chevy’s languish. Chevy's product planning people are complete nitwits.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 14:00

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Because they aren’t nearly as fun to drive. They are the boring option.

Needmoargarage > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 14:00

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Fixed is a pretty generous description of the changes. Regardless, I'd still take one if the keys were handed to me.

nermal > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 14:07

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Side point: The blue Focus RS is completely inferior compared to the white one.

TheHondaBro > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 15:09

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I totally agree.

Dusty Ventures > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 19:19

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I don’t know, it lapped the track faster than a Cayman S or Jaguar XFR, which is damn impressive. Hell, it was less than a second off the Gallardo Spyder. And all the reviews I’ve read and people I’ve talked to directly who have taken it around the track praised it highly.

TheHondaBro > Flavien Vidal 07/09/2016 at 19:21

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There’s a button for lunacy.

There’s nothing more German than that.

Wurrwulf > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 20:20

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Ford is the only American manufacturer that I would consider buying a car from. I’ll say that that counts for something.

wiffleballtony > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 20:49

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wiffleballtony > Tom McParland 07/09/2016 at 20:51

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wiffleballtony > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/09/2016 at 20:55

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To your three points. Most magazines disagree with that assessment on the Fusion. The SS itself is a warmed over version of an 8 year old car that they are charging you double for. And that assumes you can even find an SS. Plus your comparing an AWD to a RWD. Removing Lincoln and Mercury is not even relevant to this performance discussion as they haven’t had a performance model in decades.

DynamicWeight > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/10/2016 at 14:21

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When I sat in a Camaro SS it felt like sitting at the bottom of a well. Have you sat in them or just looked at pictures online? It’s up to personal preference anyway I guess. I just really like the mustang a lot more.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > DynamicWeight 07/10/2016 at 14:36

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I have sat in them. I like that feeling. If I’m in a sports car, I want to feel like my ass is dragging the ground.

DynamicWeight > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/10/2016 at 14:40

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Huh, that’s interesting take on it. That the car being high around you makes you feel like you yourself are lower. Now I really want to find out which seat is objectively lower to the ground.

Conan > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/10/2016 at 19:11

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“Also, trucks don’t count. Their trucks are ballin.”

This is a big part of why I disagree with your thesis. I mostly see their trucks.

Conan > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 07/10/2016 at 19:12

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I don’t really evaluate Mustang vs Camaro on interior.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Conan 07/10/2016 at 19:17

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I guess it depends on your expected amount of use. A lot of people who but muscle cars buy them as daily drivers, so that comes into play.